Talk:Mario vs Goku/@comment-26944016-20160520155239/@comment-30294856-20161204041942

Ok, Goku IS Universal, but I can't agree with Mario (outside of Super Paper Mario) being only MSS. A few feats put him MUCH higher, and honestly, on the level of Goku. Zen'o could still win, but between Mario and Goku it is close.

Bowser, in the first Super Mario Galaxy, survived the destruction of the universe. And no, Rosalina and the Lumas could not have saved him. This image, from the official Super Mario Galaxy game, implies that Mario was protected by Rosalina, BUT it states, "even Bowser is there, shaken by his narrow escape from a horrible fate."



That means Bowser DID survive the destruction of the Universe. Mario scales to this because Mario beats Bowser regularly. Also, Bowser fell into the black hole BEFORE the Lumas came, so they could not have been close to protecting him. Even though surviving a black hole is unquantifiable, Bowser did survive the explosion afterwards that created the new universe. This was pretty much a Big Bang. Bowser survived the Big Bang. Again, Mario should scale to this since he beats Bowser on a regular basis.

Another feat puts them at Universal+ too. Culex, from Super Mario RPG, was stated to inherit the time of Mario's universe and hold the power of creation in the Japanese version. To inherit the time of a universe, Culex would have to be Universe level+, yet Mario (and his crew of two) defeated him. Mario should be Universe level+ because even though he had help, he could still harm Culex directly. And since Bowser survived the Big Bang, I don't think fighting Culex should be an outlier. In fact, I could argue Mario being Multiversal via scaling him to Dreamy Bowser, but the reason I don't is because even though Mario and Luigi could harm Dreamy Bowser, his base form can still survive attacks from them, which doesn't make sense.

Overall, Goku is still FAR faster, but in AP and Durability, it is REALLY close.