Talk:Goku vs Sailor Moon/@comment-33383995-20171028114115/@comment-33383995-20171028115614

 Until 2015 or so, the Sailor Moon universe was thought by all (credible) sources to be at most small galaxy+, possibly galaxy level. This feat is based upon Sailor Cosmos's ability to regenerate an entire galaxy with the Lambda Power and the Cosmos Crystal (which is all the Sailor Crystals in the galaxy).

universe level+. Meanwhile, on the OBD, if we ignore speculations, hype and statements, Sailor Cosmos is still only solar system level+!

In fact, some attempts to upgrade Sailor Moon were madehere and here, as well as here. All of them got rejected on the OBD, but accepted here. This raised some questions for me.

2) Some of the feats presented here in favor of the Sailor Moon universe are extremely questionable. Here are a few:

a) "The Silver Crystal has immeasurable and unstoppable power, totally unlimited. The one who controls it also controls the entire universe and everything within it."

This is a ridiculous argument to justify the powerscaling in the Sailor Moon universe. It is an obvious no limit fallacy and a hyperbolic statement, one which is later contradicted as I am about to explain. It's virtually like saying Saitama can one punch anything.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">1) First of all notice how Queen Beryl says "from what I understand". This obviously means she doesn't know the truth about the Silver Crystal, she got the info from somewhere.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">2) Luna says <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">it can ONLY destroy a planet, depending on how it's used. This contradicts Beryl's statement of being infinite.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">3) If the Silver Crystal is infinite, why are there multiple of them? In the sense that it appears in other timelines as well.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">There are other instances.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">In<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">the<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">fight<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">against<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">Queen<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">Metallia, <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">Sailor<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">Moon<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">was<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">unable<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">to do anything to Metallia with a part of it missing,[https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act12/049.jpg <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">and she recovered the remaining part with a kiss from Mamoru. ]

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">Later,<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">Queen<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">Metallia <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">was<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">spreading<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">across<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">the Earth's<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">surface<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">as showed[https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act13/021.jpg <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">in these scans. ] HOWEVER, she seemed to do it slowly, as Artemis and Luna had enough time to go the Moon and pray WHILE Metallia was spreading across the Earth's surface. This cannot prove massively FTL+ Metallia.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Also, Metallia is not, under any shape or form, universe level at her peak. <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">The scan used has two problems:

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">"The creature that the Sun bore was an enemy of all people, of all creation" - just a figure of speech, doesn't prove anything. (DBZ) Frieza was also an enemy of all people, doesn't mean he is universal.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">"But it also wanted to possess the infinite power of the Silver Crystal" - see above, no limit fallacy.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Also note that the manga only states that "she WANTED to possess it". Not that she could. So it's only an intention, not an actual proof.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Since Metallia is not Fusion Zamasu, she didn't display this feat anywhere in the manga. Therefore, ''' Metallia was never universal in the first place. '''

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">What does this prove:

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">- the Silver Crystal was emitting energy even with a part of it missing, since Metallia was absorbing it.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">- It did not OHKO Metallia, neither when it was broken or at full power, which honestly is enough proof the Silver Crystal is not infinite.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">- Luna seemed to disagree the Silver Crystal had infinite power.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Then we move on to Death Phantom. Another being which [https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act26/022.jpg <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">implies the same no limit fallacy. ]That the Silver Crystal has infinite power.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">"I'll take over not only Earth, but anything that's ever been created, bwahaha!"

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">The page for Death Phantom also states, based on the same scan, that he is solar system level. I'll just say this: that scan shows zero proof for that.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Then there is Sailor Galaxia which also implies the same statement of the Silver Crystal having infinite power as shown [https://gallery.missdream.org/albums/scanlation_smoon/smoon_act57/011.jpg <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">here. ] She also states that, alongside the Sapphire Crystal and the other Sailor Crystals, she will become invincible, and according to this wiki, high universe level. On what basis???

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);">'''<span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">TL;DR The Silver Crystal being stated to have "infinite power", upon which tons of Sailor Moon characters are scaled (and thus reach high universe level and stuff) is a no limit fallacy. '''

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">b) Sailor Cosmos is universe level+.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">This is not true.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">She is claimed to be universe+ in this <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">scan, which seems to state she can restore and manipulate the space-time continuum. However, this is false and has no evidence for the following reasons.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">1) <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">This scan is clear about this: the Galaxy Cauldron contains all the star seeds in the GALAXY, not the universe. Sailor Cosmos clearly states this. No ifs, no buts.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Want more proof? [http://2.bp.blogspot.com/TCpeyEQhatJKvb38zfA8kZJhKFy68dSy1Q4dpJpfDoIAjwOLoKy2rd2nqisr80TdHWtm0s2Q96kXu_g1CK8snP8j0wK39Wz0nATyEfp9xdDcNwk6JrzVZi9PG6oh284vclyl9g=s0?title=004_1494223974.jpg <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">Here. ][http://2.bp.blogspot.com/eWukMU2Q-6G14tZ6rU6_yKLd50kkzs50pVnUq1hjw57bWj6SNqxP_YJrUfLHtqkwX6K7mHOoiZ6p29Sg3qMfTEExmr0O79Efca-8uFSTYGtKlm5nUADjTuP3koOaCDbz_aeWFw=s0?title=036_1494223737.jpg <span style="border-width:1pt;border-style:none;border-color:windowtext;padding:0in;color:rgb(21,27,141);">And here. ]

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">2) How the hell is the Lambda Power the force that maintains and restores the space-time continuum when there is not one single statement pointing this out? The scan does give info about the Cosmos Crystal itself, which is "the ultimate static power in all of cosmos" and that the Lambda is some constant which is related to a theory that the universe is a static and unchanging phenomenon.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Great. So basically, the Lambda Power makes Sailor Cosmos universe level+ because it's called the Lambda Power.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Can we make Cell Saga Vegeta universe level because one of his attacks is named Big Bang Attack?

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Oh, I know. How about we make the Tsar bomba (strongest hydrogen bomb ever) planet level because it was the strongest force ever tested on Earth?

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">3) Eternal Sailor Moon, when she defeated Galaxia, is implied to have saved, once again, you guess it... the galaxy! Not the universe.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">What this implies is that Sailor Cosmos is at most ''' galaxy level. '''You know, like on OBD. And since Sailor Cosmos is the strongest character in Sailor Moon (as the ultimate form of Usagi herself), everyone else is weaker than her. This means ''' the Sailor Moon universe caps at galaxy level. '''

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">c) Sailor Moon (and the others) can regenerate from nothingness, as in "mid-godly regen" and intangibility.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">Again, not true.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">This implies that as long as the universe exists and your Star Seed is destroyed, you can regenerate because of the Galaxy Cauldron. However, this claim has some major issues:

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">1) If the Galaxy Cauldron is destroyed, how is this still going to work? The Galaxy Caluldron is going to regenerate? This was only a statement from Sailor Galaxia that never happened on-panel.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">2) Let's assume the Galaxy Caludron will regenerate. Well then, how about simply destroying the galaxy itself?

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">3) The Star Seeds are claimed to contain the essence of all living people, asteroids, planets and stars. But they are basically crystals with physical forms and stuff. What if someone decides to destroy them? You don't need to be universe level+ for that.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">And about the intangibility... well, not one single scan shows she has it. So...

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">This basically means Sailor Moon's regeneration is depending on one entity, in this case the Galaxy Caludron. This ''' cannot mean she has mid-godly regen. '''

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">There are also a few other questionable feats presented here, but I'll just leave it at these 3 because they seem to be the most important.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">So, ''' TL;DR: I haven't found anything that convinces me Sailor Moon is universe level+ and has mid-godly regeneration. The Silver Crystal, that seems to be the main reason for this (as it is implied to have infinite power...) is in fact a no limit fallacy statement, one that is as credible as saying Saitama can beat anyone with one punch. '''

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">3) Another argument I saw which supports universal Sailor Moon is the fact that the original Japanese translation literally says the Lambda Power maintains the cosmos. I haven't found ANY reliable translations related to this. Besides, why is there not one official translation which states what the original Japanese translation says?

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">4) Speaking of Japanese, I saw some arguments related to how "Japanese forums agree Usagi is universe level+". Sorry but no. We don't use Japanese tier lists when we play Smash Bros., so we can't use this argument. It's basically appeal to authority.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">5) Apparently Queen Nehellenia is universe level because her life-force supports the existence of the Dark World, which is a parallel universe...?

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">The only thing that supports this is an old European legend, according to the same scan. Far more evidence is required. Plus, it once again relies on the Silver Crystal NLF.

<p style="font-size:14px;background:rgb(180,212,236);"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;">6) Lastly, where are the proofs for Sailor Mercury, Mars and stuff being on par with Sailor Moon?