Talk:RED vs. Flowey/@comment-25485523-20180805100054/@comment-28815426-20181017033522

"1. Yes, he destroyed the game and recreated it. He removed all of the previous aspects of the game, like the stages and ther characters, and recreated it so that the only thing you can do in the game is fight him."

As I've said before he didn't "destroy the game". Perhaps saying something like "destroyed the world/timeline" would make more sense. Even then when he's defeated, everything goes back to normal, so I don't get how that makes any sense. He created a seperate area to fight in, which isn't much of a feat.

2. "Your nitpicking extremely".

Not really.

"I said that no one else except for Omega Flowey was left after he changed the game snd your all like "Uh, well Frisk and the SOULS are around, so he's not the only one there"."

In retrospect, I realize how stupid this sounds. The Souls ARE there but they kind of have to be since Floweys using them. And I guess he's messing with Frisk so that's why Frisk is still there.

"You know what I meant, and your just trying to take every last tiny mistake in my wording and using it against me."

Again, not really it was just poor wording.

3. "Flowey completely overpowered Frisk's DETERMINATION, and completely erased their last SAVE. In case you didn't know, SAVE files in Undertale are completely separate timelines. This meant that he completely undid all of Frisk's progress."

I understand this. However, after Flowey's defeat it somehow goes back to the timeline you were on. If Flowey actually deleted the save, wouldn't it be gone forever and sans couldn't call you?

4. https://undertale.wikia.com/wiki/SAVE

"It's stated here that "The First Human", being Chara, completely destroys the World and recreates it after the Player gives up their SOUL."

Also, in the "Main Story" content, it specifically states that "In the universe of Undertale, "SAVING" the game manipulates timelines, and that Photoshop Flowey has this power to change timelines.

More proof that timelines exist in Undertale is when Sans says : "our reports showed a massive anomaly in the timespace continuum. timelines jumping left and right, stopping and starting..."



I'd argue, but I don't want to do so when the Wiki's being thrown in my face. I have evidence that contradicts point 1,but people will just claim that the wiki's always right regardless.

Also yeah "manipulates." But the most we ever see Flowey do is 1. Make a pitch black area to fight in. 2. And load save states. The only other powers we see at work are traveling back in time, which doesn't change the timeline, and reseting, which starts a new one.

 Even more proof:

"The power to reshape the world... Purely by your own determination. The ability to play God! The ability to "SAVE.""

-Flowey

While all of what Flowey says is technically true, Flowey/Frisk don't seem to have direct control of what happens to the timeline. If they reset the timeline they can't choose what timeline they're in or what happens to it.

There's little actual manipulating going on tbh, but I won't deny your overall point that Flowey DOES indeed have and use these powers.

Now this opens a big can of worms if getting killed and THEN reseting counts as a loss in a death battle, considering if you die you lose and that's it. Although it IS an in-universe power...

Which technically opens up the even bigger can of worms of "Is this character even possible to to technically beat" since without time powers of their own, if the undertale character can't lose their determination and give up then it should always end in a draw right?

So the outcome of this fight largely depends on whether or not Flowey can actually be forced to give up by somehow running out of soul power or something. If not, then it's an automatic win for Flowey since he's literally impossible to beat. If he can though it's probably an eventual win for Red considering he should be able to brutually overpower Flowey eventually. Maybe. Red's a confusing character.