Talk:Son Goku vs. Madoka Kaname/@comment-33383995-20180123083310

Here is a short version...credits to gokuiscool144

"I'll say for the versions that would lose as well but won't post scans for those since there is no point, unless you wanna see them

Young Demigra was a wizard who aided in the creation of the Demon Realm, which is a universal sized dimension. He created the laws of that universe, and the realm works on magic as oppose to phyiscs. He created the concepts of the realm as well. He clashed with the God of time, and she can merge timelines together and destroy them.

Adult base Demigra is stronger than his younger self, but not known to what Degree so we'll just say he's the same as his young self. Multi-Universal for clashing with Chronoa who could merge and destroy timelines. MFTL+ speed.

His young self doesn't have many notable abilities apart from Soul manipulation, HellFire manipulation and can breathe in space.

Now for Demigra at his best. So, all games are connected to DBH as show below. So for lore, statements can be taken. Xenoverse is a part of the DBH story, and is the continuation of Xenoverse Post Demigra's suppossed death:

https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/KbiTz6hLzmd

^ This shows that all the games are connected to DBH, so lore statements apply to DBH. DBH takes place post Demigra's death in Xenoverse.

In Xenoverse, it's stated that History can take up an infinite number of paths or possibilities and you lose track of which the correct version is supposed to be: https://imgur.com/a/Q6w5g. Now, history actually refers to timelines. In fact, in Xenoverse, 16 implies that the possibilities already exist, by saying that the history they are in is 1 possibility, and the others have timelines: https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/DqCgfUtHyC7

https://imgur.com/a/pUqnM

https://imgur.com/a/0OaB3

As you can see here, even the next pack is called "Infinite history pack" which also in fact goes back to the time pattrolers statement of history being infinite.

https://imgur.com/a/Q6w5g

Now, people say those possibilites don't exist and 16 isn't a good source. But in Dragon Ball Heroes, Chronoa says the possibilities are overflowing so they must already exist.

https://imgur.com/J9flgps

In Shin Budokai, Cell states that there are endless worlds which means timelines

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/DragonBallOnline

In Dragon Ball online, there are "Semmingly Infinite timelines"

https://imgur.com/a/0FNKN

In fact, even in the DBZ manga, there is an implication of infinite timelines by Trunks. This also seems very similar to the statement by the pattroler in Xenoverse.

There are also higher dimensions in the games.

https://imgur.com/a/GheOg

The Crack of Time is stated to be an enclosed space<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;"> separate from the dimension of time.

https://imgur.com/a/Y7vLv

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">This scan states that the place that he was, was "Beyond time and space" meaning that the Crack of time is a space/dimension that is beyond time and space of the regular 4th dimensional multiverse, so 5-D.

https://imgur.com/a/o7FLt

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Even if you don't want to say the Crack of Time is 5-D, then well....The Time pattroler is stated to be an extradimensional being. Which means he comes from a dimension beyond our own (We live in 3 spatial and 1 temporal) [Sound familiar?].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdimensional_being

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">To be extra or Interdimensional means you come from a dimension beyond our own. We live in 3 spatial and 1 temporal, so a dimension beyond that is 5-D.

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">ttps:// imgur.com/a/S6MRu

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">And before you say the definition is wrong and that he is just from another universe. 16 already says he is probably from another universe, scans the data base and says that the analysis has failed and that he is probably extradimensional. Demigra is comparable to the Future Warrior so 5-D.

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Now:

https://plus.google.com/113806516725407052781/posts/idfZHzJ5SFK

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Demigra absorbed Toki-Toki, who is the embodiment of time. There are the things Toki-Toki can do in that respect thread. Time is infinite, so he would become infinitely stronger than he was. Infinitely stronger than Multi-Universal is Multiversal+

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/dragonball/images/8/87/Time_space_god.png/revision/latest?cb=20160421033950

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">If that won't convince you, after absorbing Toki-Toki he said he rules all of time and space. So, again Multiversal+

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dC58Yj4oCg8&feature=youtu.be&t=979

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Absorbing Toki-Toki gave him limitless power. And he almost destroyed the Crack of Time with his fight against Goku and the FW (The "Main ending" is considered his alone fight with FW). Even if you split it between the 3 (or 2), destroying that would have been a High multiversal+<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;"> feat, since it's a dimension beyond time and space of an infinite 4-D multiverse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uF-EpV225Q

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Also, prior to this Demigra has the feat on panel. He did in fact destroy the entire multiverse<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">, and said he was going to create his own.

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">As for speed, he's immeasurable ever since the crack of time. Most debating sites consider being 5-D Immeasurable speed regardless, but if you want direct feats.

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">As shown in the link above, he was trapped in the CoT for 75 million years, basically inhabiting it.

https://imgur.com/a/r5dEe

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">He's superior to Base Mira who exists beyond the natural flow of time.

https://imgur.com/a/IFvoq

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Mira also transcends time, and again Demigra is above him.

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">So, High Multiversal+ with Immeasurable speed.

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Now, in Heroes he has an even better feat.

https://imgur.com/gallery/CTC2f

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">He transcended the DBH multiverse [And the CoT. Which does exist in Heroes]. In DB "World" means all of existence. This is evident through quite a few sources. If you want me to show scans, I'll be happy to. But yeah, he transcended the entire infinite multiverse, and the Crack of time.

https://imgur.com/gallery/FiUJk

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">^ Continuation of the transcendence scan

https://imgur.com/a/xrNRr

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Transcending the multiverse, allowed him to affect an alternate dimension

https://imgur.com/gallery/znxtw

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">A dimension that views DBH, and the DB franchise as fiction

https://imgur.com/a/x6pJg https://imgur.com/a/iq5oJ

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">When Demigra gave his energy to Chamel, Chamel was going to collapse the DBH multiverse, the crack of time and the "Real world" with his presence

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">So. An alternate dimension, that was only affected due to Demigra transcending an infinte multiverse, and transcends the space-time of said multiverse? That is higher dimensional. If you accept the Crack of time as being a higher dimensional plane, then he would be Low complex Multiversal<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">, if you don't, then he would be High Multiversal+<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;"> with Immeasurable speed

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">His most notable hax are

<span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Concept Manipulation (Aided in the creation of the demon world. Stated he would create his own world, after destroying everything in the current one) <span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Space-time manipulation (Controls all of time and space after absorbing toki-toki) <span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Mid-Godly regeneration (Regenerates after he is destroyed in the crack of time, soul and all) <span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Existence erasure (Can trap his opponents in a time shackle that vanishes from existence. Stated many times he would erase his opponents) <span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Void manipulation (Can exist in non existence and created a castle that "Doesn't existed") <span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">High levels of mind hax (His magic "transcends human knowledge") <span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Reality warping (Warped Toki-Toki city) <span style="color:rgba(0,0,0,0.87);font-family:Roboto,RobotoDraft,Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:14px;white-space:pre-wrap;">Abstract existence (In Heroes, he stole Towa's powers. Towa can come back as long as hatred exists in the world)."